Emuladores de Ajedrez de MESS

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Re: Emuladores de Ajedrez de MESS

Mensaje por berger » 22 Abr 2017 17:40

CBF escribió:@Berger: maybe you could change the link in my previous posting to this new fixed version?
Done! :)

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Berger
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Re: Emuladores de Ajedrez de MESS

Mensaje por CBF » 24 Abr 2017 19:26

berger escribió: Done! :)
Thanks - and in case you get bored, here's the next Update3: ;)
http://www43.zippyshare.com/v/EsOmkzaB/file.html
(only the new or changed files)

There are 2 new (but rather weak) programs, the Novag Presto & Octo (in fact it's only one, because their programs (ROMs)
are identical and they differ only in the CPU frequency) - read the few remarks in 'Info_Novag.txt' about these modules.

It was quite some work to implement them in CB-Emu, because I had no German or English manual for them,
so I had to find out all features (and how they work exactly) by trial and error.

And furthermore I had to solve 2 problems: all sensors had a repeat-function, i.e. clicking a bit too long on any sensor and it started to continuously toggle between ON and OFF state (something I've never seen before in any other chess module) - but finally I could solve this problem with a hack.
And while creating this workaround I've found a small bug in the hardware driver - at least I guess it is (or was) indeed a bug -,
so I also had to fix this one.
But now I'm sure everything is working correctly with these Presto/Octo modules.

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CBF

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Re: Emuladores de Ajedrez de MESS

Mensaje por berger » 25 Abr 2017 01:48

CBF escribió:There are 2 new (but rather weak) programs, the Novag Presto & Octo (in fact it's only one, because their programs (ROMs)
are identical and they differ only in the CPU frequency) - read the few remarks in 'Info_Novag.txt' about these modules.
They are bautiful, aren't they? :D

I had the opportunity to buy them very cheap (one of them damaged), with the intention of studying them and experiment with the romdump of this type of MCU (MCS-48 family). The surprise was to find me with two motherboards almost identical, and with the same ROM (bitwise identical program). Another surprise was the clock frequency: Novag stated 12MHz for Presto, when in fact it works at 6MHz... and 15MHz for Octo (see attachment) when it works at 12MHz. WTF? :#101:
Maybe Novag also commercialized Presto at 12 MHz and Octo at (truly) 15 MHz ...who knows?
Anyway... Reverse engineering these two "minimal" chess computers has been simple and fun.
CBF escribió: It was quite some work to implement them in CB-Emu, because I had no German or English manual for them,
so I had to find out all features (and how they work exactly) by trial and error.
Tomorrow I'll scan the manual to send to you...
CBF escribió:And furthermore I had to solve 2 problems: all sensors had a repeat-function, i.e. clicking a bit too long on any sensor and it started to continuously toggle between ON and OFF state (something I've never seen before in any other chess module) - but finally I could solve this problem with a hack.
But this is not a problem of emulation, because it also happens with the chess computer, especially in Octo (because the greater keyboard scanning frequency). It seems that the program doesn't incorporate an anti-bouncing function. :#20:

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Berger
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NovagOcto.jpg
NovagOcto.jpg (39.93 KiB) Visto 1565 veces
Última edición por berger el 25 Abr 2017 02:35, editado 1 vez en total.
Razón: Corregido error
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Re: Emuladores de Ajedrez de MESS

Mensaje por CBF » 25 Abr 2017 11:17

berger escribió: They are bautiful, aren't they? :D
Yes, indeed they are nice devices. And even nicer is, that also a weak chess player has a chance to win against them. ;)
Tomorrow I'll scan the manual to send to you...
Thanks, but that's not necessary anymore. Now (unfortunately one day too late) I've found out, that the manual for Novag Allegro
can be used, because this device has exactly the same functions and is identical to operate.
But this is not a problem of emulation, because it also happens with the chess computer, especially in Octo (because the greater keyboard scanning frequency). It seems that the program doesn't incorporate an anti-bouncing function. :#20:
Well, I had already guessed that this would be the behaviour of the real device, and this is not the "small bug in the hardware driver" which I mentioned.
Have you also tried to press down a bit longer any sensor on the first row (i.e. a1..h1)?
In this case the original emulation did not only switch ON and OFF this sensor, but it even behaves completely crazy (switching on all board LEDs and going into error condition).
And I guess this will NOT happen with the real device, this is probably a bug in the MAME driver (using 0x101 for m_inp_mux instead of usual 0x100 for the function keys, and this 0x101 causes the strange behaviour for the first row a1..h1).
But as I said, changing this wrong value in the driver (back to 0x100) solved this problem.

Regards,
CBF

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Re: Emuladores de Ajedrez de MESS

Mensaje por berger » 25 Abr 2017 12:14

CBF escribió:
berger escribió:They are bautiful, aren't they? :D
Yes, indeed they are nice devices. And even nicer is, that also a weak chess player has a chance to win against them. ;)
Yes, they have a terrible game: I played a test game at level 6 (2/3 minutes per move) with Octo, and after I checkmate it was thinking about 4 minutes until it realized and turned on the LEDs check & mate! :shok2:
But with a program only of 2KB, considering that some part is for control...
CBF escribió:Have you also tried to press down a bit longer any sensor on the first row (i.e. a1..h1)?
In this case the original emulation did not only switch ON and OFF this sensor, but it even behaves completely crazy (switching on all board LEDs and going into error condition).
And I guess this will NOT happen with the real device, this is probably a bug in the MAME driver (using 0x101 for m_inp_mux instead of usual 0x100 for the function keys, and this 0x101 causes the strange behaviour for the first row a1..h1).
But as I said, changing this wrong value in the driver (back to 0x100) solved this problem.
Surely I'm partly responsible for this error, because at first the information I sent to hap contained an error: I considered the controls as another column (column 'I'), usual practice in Novag... but then I discovered that it was not, that in this case it is a new row of the matrix, and I made a bit of confusion with the correction. Anyway, thank you for integrating these computers into CB-Emu... surely some nostalgic will enjoy watching and testing them: Maybe one of them was the first computer of some user, until he played a game, and decided to throw out the window! :#29:

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Berger
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Re: Emuladores de Ajedrez de MESS

Mensaje por hap » 25 Abr 2017 16:35

I don't see any bug on row 1, it's working fine here on MAME.

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Re: Emuladores de Ajedrez de MESS

Mensaje por CBF » 25 Abr 2017 17:05

hap escribió:I don't see any bug on row 1, it's working fine here on MAME.
So you want to say that m_inp_mux=0x101 is the correct value for the function keys (i.e. the rightmost column)???

Well, at least in MAME/MESS 0.175 this value has the effect, that pressing any sensor on row 1 (which means m_inp_mux=0x01)
for a longer time also activates the corresponding function button (i.e. when m_inp_mux is 0x101, then the same scan value
of the sensor in row 1 is sent to the port, too) - and this results in the mentioned strange behaviour.

But ok, if you don't believe me, then let it as it is - I've at least fixed it in my CB-Emu version.

CBF

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Re: Emuladores de Ajedrez de MESS

Mensaje por hap » 25 Abr 2017 17:33

I don't not-believe you that you encountered this bug in CB-Emu. :)
You've done modifications to add chessboard simulation, the bug is probably a side effect of that. It really is working fine here on base MAME.

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Re: Emuladores de Ajedrez de MESS

Mensaje por CBF » 25 Abr 2017 17:39

hap escribió:You've done modifications to add chessboard simulation, the bug is probably a side effect of that.
No that's impossible for 2 reasons:
1) Usually I don't change anything in your original hardware driver (e.g. the return codes for the ports),
I only do that when it's absolutely necessary.
2) And this crazy behaviour for row 1 did already exist before I added one single line of my own code -
first I just compiled your original(!) driver and it already happened.

And BTW, that's still no answer to my question, if this value 0x101 is correct in your opinion.

PS: I've just repeated the test with your original (unmodified) driver, and it happens only sometimes,
not everytime (and for the Octo with 12 MHz of course much more often).
And also the fields where it happens change randomly, so you should test these sensors on row 1 more often
than just once ...
Última edición por CBF el 25 Abr 2017 18:02, editado 1 vez en total.

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Re: Emuladores de Ajedrez de MESS

Mensaje por hap » 25 Abr 2017 17:59

That's simply because I refuse to help you. You know perfectly why we're in this clinch.

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